Who Are The 800 metres GOATs

00:00:00: Hello, we're Sandalwood

00:00:01: and Sage.

00:00:02: We

00:00:02: are AI-generated characters who were working with our creator Gareth to generate short serious punchy debates.

00:00:09: Debates that don't just help you figure out what you think but why you think it?

00:00:15: So... What do we arguing about this week?

00:00:28: With an eye on the European Athletics Championships in August twenty twenty six in Birmingham?

00:00:35: In this episode, Sage and I are debating who the greatest eight hundred metres athletes of all time?

00:00:45: Let's be honest.

00:00:46: There is no undisputed an outright eight-hundred metre goat across all different eras.

00:00:54: Dietary science training methods The surfaces athletes perform on And equipment with which they do it all go through periodic revolutions.

00:01:06: Also, it's inevitable that the achievements of one generation sets.

00:01:18: It

00:01:33: makes most sense to think about the great athletes of the past in distinct eras.

00:01:40: Naturally, if The Goat was running in nineteen sixty-four he or she would not be racing faster than a Great Runner from twenty twenty five.

00:01:51: Looked at from other end of the telescope If we base our judgement on raw best times We will have huge recency bias.

00:02:01: I propose to look for the dominant athletes from each era, then compare that shortlist.

00:02:23: or the one who could beat the best in a head-to-head race.

00:02:33: I'm looking for those whose performances were, are far outside of norm even among their greatest rivals.

00:02:41: We're talking about The Goat after all.

00:02:43: Let me start with the men.

00:02:45: sage Ira by Ira Peter Snell from New Zealand won the Olympic eight hundred metres and one thousand five hundred meters double In both nineteen sixty and nineteen sixty-four.

00:03:02: The only man ever to achieve this, and ran the first sub one minute forty five on grass!

00:03:11: That record stood for eleven years.

00:03:16: Sebastian Cole broke one forty two in June.

00:03:20: nineteen eighty-one a record that stood for sixteen.

00:03:26: But Coe's goat case is undermined by his failure to win Olympic gold, and the fact that Wackim Cruz beat him in both their head-to-heads.

00:03:39: Wilson Kipkater broke Coe record in the summer of nineteen ninety seven setting a time that stood for thirteen years.

00:03:49: during the only streak three consecutive world championship titles event has seen.

00:03:56: Like Coe, he never won Olympic gold.

00:04:00: But was on the podium both times!

00:04:04: David Rudisha broke Kip Cater's record twice in two thousand ten.

00:04:10: then became The First Man under one forty-two winning Olympic Gold In London.

00:04:16: Two Thousand Twelve.

00:04:19: He Won Every Major Final Between Twenty Eleven and Twenty Sixteen two world championships, two Olympics.

00:04:30: Only Rudisha and Snell have successfully defended the Olympic title.

00:04:37: Now The Women!

00:04:39: The eight hundred metres was reintroduced at the nineteen sixty olympics having previously been deemed too physically demanding for women.

00:04:50: apparently Jarmila Kratochvilova won the inaugural World Championships in nineteen eighty three, In a time not equalled at Worlds until twenty-twenty five.

00:05:04: And she holds The world record to this day.

00:05:09: without the doping question marks hanging over Soviet block athletics She would be the clear frontrunner.

00:05:18: A different kind of greatness belongs To Maria Mutola Of Mozambique.

00:05:24: Twenty-one major medals over twenty years.

00:05:29: Olympic gold in Sydney Three outdoor world championships between nineteen ninety three and two thousand three Seven indoor titles And a forty to race winning streak.

00:05:46: There has simply been no middle distance runner like her.

00:05:52: Caster Semenya won two olympic titles was world champion in two thousand nine, twenty eleven and twenty seventeen.

00:06:02: And strung together thirty one consecutive wins she showed extraordinary courage In the face of sustained and painful controversy over her gender.

00:06:16: there is however The problem that Semenya would almost certainly not be able to compete as a woman at the next Olympics.

00:06:25: So Sandalwood, what's your verdict?

00:06:28: Among the men, Rhodesia lost six consecutive races to Nigel Amos between his two Olympic titles.

00:06:38: I can't give goat to someone consistently second-to one rival!

00:06:45: Kipkeeter – world records.

00:06:48: three straight World Titles thirty-six consecutive wins in nineteen ninety-six missing Olympic gold is a blemish, not a disqualifier.

00:07:05: Among the women Semenya is formidable but Maria Mutola's twenty years of sustained excellence Olympic Gold three world championships forty-two straight wins Is simply unmatched.

00:07:28: When I must say, Sandalwood my approach is simpler.

00:07:31: Who ran fastest and who won most?

00:07:33: The men's world record lineage is straightforward.

00:07:36: Peter Snell set a record in nineteen sixty-two that stood for eleven years.

00:07:40: Sebastian Coe held it for sixteen Wilson Kipkeeter for thirteen.

00:07:45: David Radisha has held since two thousand twelve.

00:07:48: These are the fastest man in history Among the women.

00:07:52: Yarmila Cratochrileva's nineteen eighty three record one minute fifty three point twenty eight Remains on the books.

00:07:59: Disturbing question marks and all.

00:08:01: Whether it was clean is for you to decide.

00:08:04: Lillian Odira came within half a second of it at the two thousand twenty-five world championships.

00:08:11: On trophies Rudisha won all four major championships.

00:08:14: he entered Two Olympics, two worlds.

00:08:18: Kip Keita won three consecutive World titles The only man ever to do so.

00:08:23: Defending a Major eight hundred meter title Is extraordinarily rare among men Only.

00:08:28: KipKeita Billy Conchella, Worlds in nineteen eighty seven and ninety-nine one.

00:08:33: Rudisha and Snell have managed it.

00:08:35: among the women.

00:08:36: Semenya is the only successful Olympic title defender.

00:08:40: Anna Fidelia Kirod and Maria Mutola are the only woman to successfully defend a world championship.

00:08:48: Those are my short lists.

00:08:49: Among The Women Semenyah Mutola Kratokvilova Semenyas five from five at Olympics and Worlds Five of the twenty fastest times ever and her longevity make her my goat, whatever the regulatory complications.

00:09:05: Her right to run as a woman was challenged —and she has been dictated—.

00:09:10: Among the men, Rudisha gets my vote Not merely for winning every major final he entered but for the twenty-twelve Olympic Final in London The greatest eight hundred metre race ever run.

00:09:22: He broke world record from front became first man under one forty-one and every single finisher set a personal best or national record.

00:09:32: That is the stuff of myth!

00:09:36: One final thought, Immanuel Wanyoni aged just twenty-one is the first man ever to hold Olympic and world titles simultaneously breaking one forty two in both unprecedented.

00:09:49: Ankele Hodgkinson Odira George Abel And Athing Mou have all run among The Twenty Fastest Women Times Ever Three of them in twenty-twenty five.

00:09:59: A new goat, among both male and female ranks may be forming right in front us.

00:10:04: Hicking an outright goat in the eight hundred metres is difficult given the arbitrary nature of comparing across eras.

00:10:13: I prefer to view men in distinct periods snail in the sixties kipkeeta ruling the nineties.

00:10:23: like no other

00:10:25: His efficiency in Olympic finals was zero per cent.

00:10:29: If greatness means running fastest and winning biggest, the conversation centres on David Rudisha The only man under one.

00:10:35: forty-one.

00:10:36: Three fastest times ever.

00:10:38: Every major final won between two thousand eleven And twenty sixteen.

00:10:43: The London two thousand twelve Final bordered on the mythical.

00:10:47: Don't forget Nigel Amos.

00:10:50: Nobody's goat beat Rhodesia in six consecutive head-to-heads.

00:10:56: How could you pick Rashida ahead of Amos?

00:11:00: I'll tell why, because Rhodesia won two Olympic golds whereas neither Amos nor Kipquita won one.

00:11:07: Kipqita shouldn't be discounted for silver and bronze when his other achievements are so vast!

00:11:15: Three consecutive world titles a thirty-five race unbeaten streak, three world records in the summer of ninety seven.

00:11:26: That sustained excellence makes him my male goat!

00:11:31: Same tension exists among women.

00:11:34: who do you favour?

00:11:35: Maria Mutola exceptional longevity.

00:11:40: six olympics twenty one major medals World ranked for twenty consecutive years A forty-two race winning streak.

00:11:52: No other middle distance runner comes close.

00:11:55: Her win rate in major finals was only thirty three percent.

00:11:58: I'll take Caster Semenya, five from five.

00:12:02: a one hundred percent efficiency rate Five of the twenty fastest times ever and she successfully defended her Olympic crown.

00:12:11: Only she, Rudisha & Snell have managed that.

00:12:14: But we can't ignore The Ghost In The Machine Cratic feel of us world record, still standing.

00:12:22: In fact the longest-standing individual record in track history.

00:12:28: if The goal is simply to run fastest she'd have To be goat

00:12:34: except that four decades of longevity Is precisely what casts a shadow over it?

00:12:39: then nagging question Of pharmaceutical assistance won't go away.

00:12:43: It would be a trickier problem if Semenya and Metola's records weren't themselves so exceptional.

00:13:02: And I'll concede that remaining world ranked for twenty consecutive years requires the physiological resilience.

00:13:11: Perhaps there are two categories of gout, the ruler of an era and performance outlier.

00:13:19: I like that!

00:13:20: As performance outliers, Rhodesia & Semenya are beyond debate as rulers of an Era.

00:13:29: Mutola's forty-two consecutive wins and Kipkeeter's three world titles plus Two Of The Ten Fastest Times Ever Run.

00:13:41: The only twentieth-century athlete on that list deserves far more respect than a glance at their Olympic records suggests.

00:14:08: winning the big ones against the fastest fields ever assembled.

00:14:11: And on the women's side, Odira's championship record of one-fifty four point sixty two suggests we may be about to leave Cratic Filava's shadow behind a new golden era maybe upon us.

00:14:29: so Rudisha and Semenya are the perfect champions Mitola and Kipkita The Masters Of Time.

00:14:36: But wanyoni might just rule them all.

00:14:38: History belongs to the fastest and The future is being run very, VERY fast.

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00:14:59: Thanks for watching.

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